I'm not playing peacemaker here but I've met in person Jeff, Jerry, and Shelby and I have to admit that I like all of y'all and for me that's saying something cuz I don't instantly like hardly anyone. I hazard to guess if you guys met each other in person you might like each other too. Can't you all just agree to disagree? Thanx for that MrsJones. In honesty, I think I would like everyone here in person, over a beer or BBQ, discussing the weather and the latest sporting event. Every poster on this thread would be welcome in my house anytime. I mean that. I hold no grudges. In philosophical debate, things get heated. But I have no enemies here, and seek to make none. But interesting discussions cannot often come from full agreement. 'Tis the spice of life. Peace to all, especially to the peacemaker. I think we will all part amicably from this thread, if it shall ever end...... Jeff |
AK - Jeff
JoinedPosts by AK - Jeff
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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AK - Jeff
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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AK - Jeff
What I don't get, dear Jeff (again, peace to you!)... is that that IS an answer (albeit, perhaps not acceptable/desirable to or liked by you...), yet you refuse to see it as such. That suggests to ME that there is no answer for YOU... accept that which IS acceptable/desirable to or liked by you. How is that "rational" or "logical"?
No, in the matter of God's response [or lack thereof] it is not an answer that is logical.
Believers cannot have it both ways - saying on one hand that God is love, and on the other hand that he ignores the plight of mankind because it 'is man's problem to deal with'.
IF though, in spite of it's contradictory nature, that is the case to which you stick, then you definitely take the #2 position - God ignores or never hears prayers or cannot act on them. No matter how you wish to 'qualify and quantify' his/her/it's response to the problem, God's lack of action must be due to his ignoring prayer on the matter, or his inability to act. For none of the believers would or ever has stated that millions of believers are not praying in behalf of these starving children - people all over the world have been so praying for millennia without answer. How can there be any other choice? Even if he ignores those problems because he views them as man's problem - then he falls into #2 - can you at least make that concession?
Jeff
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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AK - Jeff
If your god can look down and see these poor children, and thenignore them - he either is impotent to act or he is a SHIT!
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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AK - Jeff
I see the side-stepping of the OP continues, with some theists patting themselves on the back for their cleaver [they think] dodging of the philosophical questions posed 50 pages back.
I know, I know. A guest will come back on, arguing that he/she answered the questions but was ignored. Not true of course, but it sounds good. A guest has written another book of two since I last checked, tec continues down the same road of denial of the original questions, and nancy just spouts gibberish.
Just like Jw's at the door, these people seem to think that as long as they keep talking, all objections to god allowing millions of children to starve every year will just go away and be forgotten. It is [according to his followers and not me] well within his power and his love to fix the problem and eradicate hunger, yet he does not do so, so the inescapable conclusion is as stated in the OP. Precisely as we 'informed' the householders who made similar objections, these theists continue to do the same with 'It's mankind at fault - god has a plan, and he will work it in his due time'. Or ' Our minds are unable to grasp all the answers'. Or 'Let me show you another portion of scripture that explains THAT'. Or 'Let me show you another AGuest Book that explains THAT, filled with detailed explanation and exegesis.'
I'll check back in a day or two, likely to see more of the same. In the meantime, since this post was started, between 6000 and 24000 children have died of hunger on the planet - your loving god did precisely nothing to stop it - and you spent 12 days praising him while ignoring the reality that he either does not exist, does not care, is impotent, or is evil.
If one human parent allowed one child to die of starvation when it was preventable in your neighborhood you would be calling for him to be held to the highest courts for his willful omission of action. You would be aghast at such hateful treatment of a child - But with your so-called omnipotent, omniscient, all loving 'Heavenly Father', it is not only permissible that he do such a thing once, but thousands of times every day - with a full pass and full praise from you. That is just sickening to me. Indefensible despots do such things - not loving heavenly fathers!
Jeff
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86
This site is a bad site! I am ashamed that i have joined!
by MsPassach ini am so ashamed that i joined this site!
i thought that i would meet people here that honour jehovah here.
insread most of the people here are not here for the service of god.
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AK - Jeff
Interesting indeed.
Someone joins a forum, and then only posts 1 time to condemn the forum? I think not. My bullshyte meter is redlined on this one. Why not just look over the site and leave?
Jeff
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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AK - Jeff
Those three options offer no insistence that there is no god - did any of the trinity read #2? That allows for a god. So does #1. You just don't like the obvious implications that come with accepting that God is either evil or impotent or deaf or uninterested in the death of 20 million innocent children a year. You have an option here, you just refuse to accept it's viability because it conflicts with your imaginary lines of decency regarding this 'god'.
Still, the logic has never been refuted by the triune partners.
As UC stated so well - the burden of proof resides with those who believe in invisible people in invisible places doing great, but invisible works, and giving invisible life, for eternity to those who correctly interpret the correct writings of the correct itinerant Jewish goat herders.
Evidence is not proof. So far there has not been any evidence nor any proof, though you keep stating you have provided it. All you have is anecdotal. Nothing more, nothing less.
Jeff
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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AK - Jeff
The real intent of this thread was just about what it accomplished, as summarized well by Uber above. Thank you poopsie for asking those thought provoking questions. I too recall the wet feet, and am totally confused by those who prefer to keep dumping water into a bucket, while claiming it is holy, not holey. [Good pun.] [And good fun.] Hope I didn't make too many enemies. Point/Set/Match.
Thanx all. Night.
Jeff
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41
Will Good People Go to Hell?
by leavingwt inwill good people go to hell?
please allow this gentleman to explain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xnr098vbko&feature=channel_video_title.
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AK - Jeff
Short answer for those who don't read my posts anymore due to my lack of faith: Yes and NO.
Jeff
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41
Will Good People Go to Hell?
by leavingwt inwill good people go to hell?
please allow this gentleman to explain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xnr098vbko&feature=channel_video_title.
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AK - Jeff
Agreed 100% with UC. No one gets out of life alive - we all die forever, just as did our caveman brothers and sisters, and all other species of life on this planet.
So we all go to the JW sort of hell - dead forever. Not a pleasant thought, but prob better than spending it with St Peter and sitting around bored on the clouds while earth turns with millions of dying children, earthquakes, famines, floods - while looking over to the next cloud and seeing Yahweh/Jesus/Allah/Name your God sitting there twiddling his thumbs and letting his creation perish by the billions. Cause if I had to watch that sort of maniacal indifference for eternity, I would be confused whether I was in heaven or hell anyway. And I don't think they allow harp-players to kill god even if he is ignoring his creation, and he would be deserving. [and is I suppose now - if he is]
On the other hand - can god die. SUppose that depends of which believer you ask - some say yes, some say no. If he dies can he go to hell? Some say yes, some say now. If he goes to hell can he get out? Some say yes, some say no.
This theology shit is confusing as hell. Oh wait - the topic is hell isn't it? Well, went around in a circle didn't we? Believers are used to that I suppose. LOL
Jeff
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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AK - Jeff
God answers the prayers of those who belong to Him. He is not obligated to answer any other prayers, as he has not promised to answer any other prayers. Before someone jumps on the 'choosiness' of this, those who belong to Him (through His Son) would have His spirit. Their prayers should then come from a place of trust and love, for Him and for their fellow man.
Is there any 'evidence' for this assertion then? Or shall we lay it upon the pile of previous assertions made without logical merit, and we'll get to it later? [wink]
As a fine comedian once stated: "You can't fix stupid."
'Nuff said. The circular reason has fully convinced me that I have thrown enough pearls before swine [to quote one of the good theists here from before, who was quoting another unknown author inspired by invisible people whom he can't prove exist].
Theist - just take a seat over there - we will be with you soon.
Jeff
